Comments on: Day 6: Figeac and Petit-Villages http://blog.bedrockwineco.com/2008/02/08/day-6-figeac-and-petit-villages/ It takes a Village to raise a Winery Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:01:07 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2.1 By: Morgan http://blog.bedrockwineco.com/2008/02/08/day-6-figeac-and-petit-villages/#comment-2579 Morgan Fri, 15 Feb 2008 04:06:33 +0000 http://blog.bedrockwineco.com/2008/02/08/day-6-figeac-and-petit-villages/#comment-2579 Your idea is certainly one that all winemakers living in the modern age (or post-modern age as Clark Smith might have us believe) needs to contend with. By the by, when I mentioned staves I actually meant barrel staves, but the tank stave-micro-ox question is an important one and of great interest. My general feeling is this. At all the facilities that I have visited, and with most of the winemakers that I have talked with that have used staves and micro-ox, there is still a general consensus that barrel aging is the higher quality option. That said, the technology gap has closed to a great extent in the last few years and I would be hard pressed to tell you that a wine saw micro-ox and stave in tank versus mediocre oak barrel aging in a blind tasting. When it comes to the best wines though I have little doubt, organoleptically, philosophically, and chemically, that traditional elevage in high quality oak yields the best product. That said, for the vast majority of wines produced in the world (we should not forget that the $20 and over wine represents a miniscule fraction of wine actually consumed globally) new technologies such as tank staves with micro-ox proffer two potent tools in upping the quality of a vast number of wines. As a single and isolated example, imagine what staves and some micro-ox could do to all of those hard, tough, plonk Bordeaux Rouge that are not selling...... Your idea is certainly one that all winemakers living in the modern age (or post-modern age as Clark Smith might have us believe) needs to contend with. By the by, when I mentioned staves I actually meant barrel staves, but the tank stave-micro-ox question is an important one and of great interest.

My general feeling is this. At all the facilities that I have visited, and with most of the winemakers that I have talked with that have used staves and micro-ox, there is still a general consensus that barrel aging is the higher quality option. That said, the technology gap has closed to a great extent in the last few years and I would be hard pressed to tell you that a wine saw micro-ox and stave in tank versus mediocre oak barrel aging in a blind tasting. When it comes to the best wines though I have little doubt, organoleptically, philosophically, and chemically, that traditional elevage in high quality oak yields the best product.
That said, for the vast majority of wines produced in the world (we should not forget that the $20 and over wine represents a miniscule fraction of wine actually consumed globally) new technologies such as tank staves with micro-ox proffer two potent tools in upping the quality of a vast number of wines. As a single and isolated example, imagine what staves and some micro-ox could do to all of those hard, tough, plonk Bordeaux Rouge that are not selling……

]]> By: Eric H http://blog.bedrockwineco.com/2008/02/08/day-6-figeac-and-petit-villages/#comment-2565 Eric H Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:58:26 +0000 http://blog.bedrockwineco.com/2008/02/08/day-6-figeac-and-petit-villages/#comment-2565 Thanks, Morgan - great stuff. Your last sentence re: in-tank staves sparked another thought. I've spoken to a few winemakers ( emphasis on "few") and read a few studies on the staves (sometimes with micro-ox) vs. barrel question, and the so far the conclusion seems to be that there is really no wine quality difference when using staves. It seems to me that the stave method also gives the winemaker much more control and open up a lot more options - mixed toast levels to fine tune, more wood vs. wine volume control, no barrel-to barrel-wine variance, etc. - that would mean more consistent and potentially higher quality wine. Of course, the image factor is still there - to most consumers a row of finely crafted, spot-lit oak barrels says "quality" a bit better than a row of stainless steel tanks. What are your thoughts on staves? Thanks, Morgan - great stuff. Your last sentence re: in-tank staves sparked another thought. I’ve spoken to a few winemakers ( emphasis on “few”) and read a few studies on the staves (sometimes with micro-ox) vs. barrel question, and the so far the conclusion seems to be that there is really no wine quality difference when using staves. It seems to me that the stave method also gives the winemaker much more control and open up a lot more options - mixed toast levels to fine tune, more wood vs. wine volume control, no barrel-to barrel-wine variance, etc. - that would mean more consistent and potentially higher quality wine. Of course, the image factor is still there - to most consumers a row of finely crafted, spot-lit oak barrels says “quality” a bit better than a row of stainless steel tanks.

What are your thoughts on staves?

]]> By: Morgan http://blog.bedrockwineco.com/2008/02/08/day-6-figeac-and-petit-villages/#comment-2499 Morgan Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:08:49 +0000 http://blog.bedrockwineco.com/2008/02/08/day-6-figeac-and-petit-villages/#comment-2499 American oak is typically far more aggressive and loaded with lactones. As a result, American oak tends to slap a wine with oak rather than caress it. Though it can add a boatload of nice spice components to a wine I have not found a barrel yet that does not also add a good dose of coconut or whiskey lactones into the wine as well. At its worst, American oak also creates a dill-spice aromatic that I find off-putting. Though for some wines American oak has become a signature, i.e. Ridge, most Riserva and Gran Riserva Riojas and many tradtional Aussie Shiraz, I still do not find it particularly enjoyable. There is also an economic factor at play. American oak costs less than half of French oak. Though there is a certain convenience in the old Paul Draper "patriotism" argument that an American varietal such as Zinfandel deserves American oak, making it a truly American wine. I also think that it is pretty nice that they can charge $30-40 a bottle for their top-end Zins and pay far less for oak by utilizing oak of inferior quality. They have done it for so long though that Ridge fans have become normalized to the flavor and do not stop to ask how much better the wines could possibly be if better cooperage was used. There is a reason that many wines that have traditionally used American oak such as top Aussie Shiraz and Rioja are seeing more and more French oak. Not only is the increasingly sophisticated global palate demanding better oaking treatments and rewarding it with higher prices, the wines in many cases are simply better. French oak, in most cases, adds far more subtle and intriguing arrays of aromatic, flavor and textural components to a wine that American oak simply can not. This is not to say that American oak barrels have not gotten better recently. A number of processes being used by cooperages such as Saury and Seguin-Moreau cut down on some of the harsh lactone elements of American oak. Water bent, steam bent, and fire bent staves seem make for oak that is a little less aggressive. That said, in most cases I would still rather use high-quality French oak staves rather than American oak barrels if I was ever forced to cut down on my barrel costs. American oak is typically far more aggressive and loaded with lactones. As a result, American oak tends to slap a wine with oak rather than caress it. Though it can add a boatload of nice spice components to a wine I have not found a barrel yet that does not also add a good dose of coconut or whiskey lactones into the wine as well. At its worst, American oak also creates a dill-spice aromatic that I find off-putting. Though for some wines American oak has become a signature, i.e. Ridge, most Riserva and Gran Riserva Riojas and many tradtional Aussie Shiraz, I still do not find it particularly enjoyable.
There is also an economic factor at play. American oak costs less than half of French oak. Though there is a certain convenience in the old Paul Draper “patriotism” argument that an American varietal such as Zinfandel deserves American oak, making it a truly American wine. I also think that it is pretty nice that they can charge $30-40 a bottle for their top-end Zins and pay far less for oak by utilizing oak of inferior quality. They have done it for so long though that Ridge fans have become normalized to the flavor and do not stop to ask how much better the wines could possibly be if better cooperage was used.
There is a reason that many wines that have traditionally used American oak such as top Aussie Shiraz and Rioja are seeing more and more French oak. Not only is the increasingly sophisticated global palate demanding better oaking treatments and rewarding it with higher prices, the wines in many cases are simply better. French oak, in most cases, adds far more subtle and intriguing arrays of aromatic, flavor and textural components to a wine that American oak simply can not.
This is not to say that American oak barrels have not gotten better recently. A number of processes being used by cooperages such as Saury and Seguin-Moreau cut down on some of the harsh lactone elements of American oak. Water bent, steam bent, and fire bent staves seem make for oak that is a little less aggressive.
That said, in most cases I would still rather use high-quality French oak staves rather than American oak barrels if I was ever forced to cut down on my barrel costs.

]]> By: Eric H http://blog.bedrockwineco.com/2008/02/08/day-6-figeac-and-petit-villages/#comment-2355 Eric H Sun, 10 Feb 2008 00:13:25 +0000 http://blog.bedrockwineco.com/2008/02/08/day-6-figeac-and-petit-villages/#comment-2355 Morgan, Following up on what you said about Petit-Villages, what are the characteristics of American oak that you aren't fond of? It sounds like your host there doesn't like it either but your discovery makes that a bit questionable. Maybe they are secretly planning to branch out into Zinfandel ;) Morgan,

Following up on what you said about Petit-Villages, what are the characteristics of American oak that you aren’t fond of?

It sounds like your host there doesn’t like it either but your discovery makes that a bit questionable. Maybe they are secretly planning to branch out into Zinfandel ;)

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